gwenfrankenstien | (no subject)

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So this preview for next week's Batgirl has been floating around (3 non-spoilery pages), and um adorable art aside, I don't think it is as great as people are acting like it is!

It's page two that is pissing me off right now.

This version of the story, narrated by Steph, ignores the fact that Steph was ever Robin. It's bad enough when other characters do that, but Steph herself?! When Steph does show up (in her own story!) it's as a girl with a ridiculous (unrequited, those are broken hearts crush on Robin. I mean, sure, I get that that's how the world saw her, but you'll never convince me that's how she ever saw herself.

...And it also ignores Cass completely. Y'know, Cass Cain? Remember her? Steph's best friend?!

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THIS.

What the hell. That's not Steph at all. >:( Ugh, now I want all the Robin!Steph/Batgirl!Cass. lol as if I ever don't want that.

Everybody on tumblr is like "Aww this is so cute! Tiny Spoiler! Steph talking about Jason!" and I am like "YOU GUYS THIS IS STUPID SHIT WHY DON'T YOU NOTICE."

Steph and Cass = best dynamic duo ever. It's a fact.

Hi, this seems like an appropriate time to mention that I just added you (actually it was a few days or a week ago, and there was definitely a reason at the time, and I forget what that reason was). And I agree with this ONE HUNDRED PERCENT. Although I am otherwise really enjoying the current run of Batgirl, it feels like the writer subscribes just a little bit too much to fanboy orthodoxy about The Way Steph Was (like the idea that Batgirl is the time when Steph is finally doing it for herself: um, Spoiler was an identity created by Steph in order for Steph to figer her dad and help her mom) and the whole Steph-wasn't-really-Robin thing is exactly the same. Steph was Robin and being Robin WAS important to her - she specifically sought out reassurance from Bruce for that on her deathbed, ffs. This is just so infuriating. (Also, I'm not wild about the way Babs goes from Heroic Batgirl to Gloomy Oracle - I know Babs is a bit snarky to Steph sometimes, but still.)

Yes! This! Thank you!

I'm sitting here seething over this and I just keep seeing ignore the fail or try to excuse it or say "Oh, he doesn't think of her like that, he's showing us her low self-esteem" and I'm just getting so sick of it.

If this story were just seen by itself, maybe I would think it was cute and funny. But it’s within a context where Cass has been largely ignored lately, Steph!Robin has been largely ignored basically since she got fired, Jason is constantly being reduced to “always” being a bad guy, Steph is being thought of as this silly little girl, Babs is being written as angry whenever writers can’t figure out what to do with her… These things happen all the time.

'This version of the story, narrated by Steph, ignores the fact that Steph was ever Robin.'
People want to avoid that period of Steph's history. And what was Steph supposed to cut out of the timeline so that Cass gets included?

Steph being treated as not REALLY Robin is kind of a big deal and has a lot of history behind it, so whenever I see that happen it hurts because I was just getting into comics when all that fighting was going on.

And did I say anywhere that I wanted stuff cut? Adding two more panels to the page-- One dealing with an important part of the main character/narrator's background, and one acknowledging the EXISTENCE of her best friend, would hardly have interrupted the flow of the narrative or what-the-fuck-ever.

What exactly was the writer supposed to drop so the Cass / Steph friendship gets added?
BTW, can you please stop saying things like:
'Hallucinating STUPIDLY about STUPID THINGS that happened in this book because of Horrocks’ complete misunderstanding of a lot of things, like what Barbara Gordon is all about.'

&

'GODDAMMIT HORROCKS.' X2
Thanks.

I don't understand why you think something has to be dropped in order to add that? The page layout would need to be changed to accommodate two new panels.

Could you please stop telling me what to talk about on my blog without even bothering to sign your fucking name? Thanks.

'Could you please stop telling me what to talk about on my blog without even bothering to sign your fucking name? Thanks.'
And you just provided the reason why I don't post my name. Seriously, stop saying rude words every time writers decide not to read comics.

I'm sorry you object to my language.

I objected to those stories, they made me quite angry, and I expressed that with my words. All three "official" Batgirls mean a great deal to me, and stories that I feel disrespected and misrepresented those characters do not, to me, deserve to be treated with kid gloves. I swear a lot. I do. In every day conversation, in all kinds of situations. I swear like a fucking sailor. That is not likely to change any time soon.

I would say that no disrespect was meant to Mr. Horrocks, but actually, it kind of was.

'I objected to those stories, they made me quite angry, and I expressed that with my words.'
That does not mean you had to use the word you did as a response.

'All three "official" Batgirls mean a great deal to me, and stories that I feel disrespected and misrepresented those characters do not, to me, deserve to be treated with kid gloves.'
I'm not sure where you're getting the word 'three' from - Babs hadn't been Batgirl since COIE, IIRC.

But flashbacks and books like Batgirl: Year One and Batman Confidential: The Bat and the Cat have made it clear that she still was Batgirl. Are you getting her confused with the actual first Batgirl? It's true, Betty/Bette hasn't been Batgirl since the crisis.

Or have you read a single Oracle story that implies that she started out just as Oracle without having been a Bat first? Because I would like to see that story!

Many, many BoP stories, parts of Nightwing and Cass' Batgirl series (with which I assume you are familiar, as that's part of what started this conversation), Babs' early Oracle appearances in Suicide Squad, Batman: No Man's Land, Gotham Knights...

All across the board, these books discuss Babs as a former Batgirl. Even if the exact stories in which she was Batgirl are in that nebulous Bronze Age continuity "maybe", the fact that she was Batgirl is not actually up for dispute in the way it is for Betty/Bette Kane.

You seem to be confusing Babs as Batgirl (which is very different than Bette's first codename!) & Babs as Oracle. And Horrocks was miles better than Cass's run post Fresh Blood / OYL.

No, you seemed to be confusing them, by saying that Post-Crisis, Babs wasn't Batgirl. The Betty Kane Bat-Girl just plain didn't exist after the Crisis. (Neither did Kara Zor-El or Helena Wayne.) But Batgirl did. Saying she didn't because she was no longer active into the late 80s and beyond is like saying Bruce and Dick's parents "didn't exist" after the crisis because they only appear in flashbacks and don't actively effect the story.

And yes, you are correct. Far worse things have happened to Cass than Horrocks' run. It was not meant to be an insult to everything Horrocks has ever written; the "Batgirl and Robin" issue (I think it's #53 or thereabouts) is actually one of my favourite comics ever.

But Barbara Gordon calling Cass Cain "stupid" should never have happened.

'But Barbara Gordon calling Cass Cain "stupid" should never have happened.'
Er, what? Cass had 53 issues to learn how to read - Babs was right calling her stupid.

She lived with a librarian who works closely with a high school teacher, neither of whom apparently paid enough attention to her reading level to notice she didn't even know the alphabet. Also, she's a character with severe learning disabilities which stem from parental abuse. Was she just supposed to magically figure out how to read all on her own? Maybe find another psychic to mess with her head?

'She lived with a librarian who works closely with a high school teacher, neither of whom apparently paid enough attention to her reading level to notice she didn't even know the alphabet. Also, she's a character with severe learning disabilities which stem from parental abuse.'
*facepalm* Oracle has better things to do than asking someone how to read books.

Oracle is responsible for Cass' well-being. While no legal adoption had taken place-- probably because legally Cass doesn't exist-- I don't think it's a far stretch to say Babs is acting as a surrogate mother-figure.

If you're a mother, and your child doesn't have a skill that could save her life, and it's a skill that you have the ability to (attempt to) teach her and/or the resources to get someone else to help teach her, and you choose not to do so, it's not the CHILD that's behaved stupidly here.

'Oracle is responsible for Cass' well-being.'
Cass is a ninja - why would she need someone to ask about her well-being? You seem to think that Oracle should use all her resources to fix Cass at the expense of everyone else.

I almost never say this because it is a really awful thing to tell someone, but good god I hope you don't have kids.

'I almost never say this because it is a really awful thing to tell someone, but good god I hope you don't have kids.'
And what does the above comment have to do with your dislike for Horrocks?

It doesn't, it has to do with my dislike of YOU.

You are coming off as not just a jerk to me (the way you are saying things) but a terrible person in general (the things you are saying).

It is NOT okay for a parent to call their child stupid, ESPECIALLY when that child has severe learning disabilities. I've dealt with your deliberate obtuseness, derailing/redirection, and colossal point-missing for longer than I probably should, but I can't continue "civil debate" with someone who disagrees with the above concept.

'You are coming off as not just a jerk to me (the way you are saying things) but a terrible person in general (the things you are saying).'
Excuse me? I'm not the one going around posting things like "Goddammit Horrocks". And Babs said the word 'stupid' once during his run.

I'm sorry your morals are literally so corrupt that you think a fan expressing distaste with a comic book is worse than A PARENT CALLING THEIR DISABLED CHILD STUPID, but please get the fuck off my blog. I am not going to respond to you any more, any further disgusting anon comments will be deleted.

Now you can go and tell your troll friends you won the argument, if you like, asshole.

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You may have missed the memo, but it's my fucking blog and that means I get to decide what goes on it.

If you had signed a name and linked to your own blog, maybe we could be having this discussion in your space where you were in charge of the discourse

But you didn't, we're not. My blog, I am queen here. Shut the fuck up and get the fuck out. I am beyond sick of talking to you. I have anon comments on so that people who can't make a DW account can still join the conversation, not so people can shit all over the page.

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There. Done.

Ha, two can play at this game.

Seriously, person. The great thing about the internet is that you can use it to voice your opinions about anything, as evidenced by her stating her completely valid opinion about this narrative and your insistent and persevering ragging on her language and high-handed attempts to sound like the wronged party.

Another great thing about the internet is that when you disagree with somebody, you don't have to be an obnoxious little troll for the next several hours of both of your lives. You can gtfo, and forget about it. Wow! Isn't it a miracle?!

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